M
Matt Whiting
I agree. I've looked at several sources of information, mostly on the
web as I can't find it elsewhere. Supertech is consistently substandard
as are the standard Fram filters and many other brands.
Matt
I agree. I've looked at several sources of information, mostly on the
web as I can't find it elsewhere. Supertech is consistently substandard
as are the standard Fram filters and many other brands.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Bob said:Chris,
I thought SuperTech filters were made by Champion Labs. Maybe I'm behind the
times, as usual.
It likely changes year to year as Wal-Mart shops for the best price.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:
Yes, I do make that assumption knowing a little about Wal-Marts business
practices.
Matt
B
Bob Adkins
I don't think Deere makes their own mowers, do they? Neither does Troy
Built, Craftsman, Huskvarna, or Poulan AFAICT. They buy them from one of the
big manufacturers. I think "Yard Machines" is a main one, and another
company(? Maybe Electrolux?) is another big one.
M
Matt Whiting
Bob said:
Last I knew Deere made most of their mowers. The engine in mine is a
Kawasaki, which I considered a plus after owning three Kawasaki
motorcycles. Consumer reports had an article on mowers some time ago
and talked about who made which mowers. I wasn't thinking John Deere
bought from one of the mower mills, but maybe that has changed for their
low-end machines like those sold at Home Depot. I didn't buy one of
those.
Matt
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:
You know what they say about assuming...
It's popular to bash Walmart these days and some of it is deserved, but
the truth is that they sell a lot of high quality products. Supertech
oil is API certified and it comes from the same source as other brand
name oils. The analysis I've seen of it indicates that's it equivalent
quality to other brands. Considering that it's a synthetic, it's
virtually guaranteed to be superior in protection to the dino oil that
is good enough for Hyundai.
B
Bob Adkins
Excellent point!
Once upon a time when we all had dark hair, there was a wide difference in
oil quality. Some was pretty good, some was bilge sludge.
Now, I bet there's VERY LITTLE difference from the best to the worst. Almost
imperceptible! Certainly not enough to get our shorts in a wad about.
This is the result of STANDARDS. SAE used to rule the roost, and their
standards metrics were primitive.
Now,,, there are several standards testing bodies in the fray, and the oil
bottlers must comply or die. We win!
B
Bob Adkins
We're not talking about ideology. Just oil. Oil has no business model, no
employees, and no politics. It just sits there and does its job without
complaint.
Hey, oil has it pretty good!
B
Bob Adkins
I've heard chatter that the V6 was designed for 300K miles. The 300K was
(allegedly) specified by Daimler-Chrysler, who will (Again, allegedly!) be
using some Hyundai engines in their cars.
God forbid my engine lasts that long. I want it to die at 10 years of 150K,
whichever comes first. I don't want a beat-up old geriatric car in my garage
that runs like new, because how do you justify a new one?
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:
My assumption is made on knowing a little bit about Wally World.
Yes, I would agree that cheap synthetic is better than even high quality
dino oil, but again that assumes that the cheap synthetic is passing at
last basic quality control tests. If metal filings from a refinery
problem get out due to poor QA, then your in trouble synthetic or not.
I'm not nearly as worried about the "normal" batch of cheap oil as I am
the batch that gets through the poorer QA system of generic suppliers.
And this just an oil issue, it is true with many generic products,
especially those without some independent oversight such as FDA, etc.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Bob said:
Sorry, but I've seen test data (from the source I've mentioned here
several times before - MCN) that shows the above statement to be
patently false. There was a wide range of data in virtually every
parameter of the oil that was tested.
Some oils have far better additive packages than others, and the
correlation wasn't perfect with price and brand name, but it was
significantly correlated.
Standards in most cases provide only a minimum (or ocasionally a maximum
to prevent catcon poisoning) requirement. They don't ensure equality at
all. The Air Force has a minium height standard for its pilots (and a
maximum as well). Do you you really think this standard means that all
pilots in the Air Force are the same height?
Now,,, there are several standards testing bodies in the fray, and the oil
bottlers must comply or die. We win!
Ha, ha, ha. This is funnny.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Bob said:
I'd suggest then that you use the cheapest oil (Supertech Dino is
probably it) and oil filters you can find. Actually, the best way to
solve your problem is to never change the oil at all!!
Matt
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:
Once again, you're conconcting hypothetical, non-existent problems in an
effort to scare people into siding with you. What's with this nonsense?
What drives you to simply make things up?
So I guess the INDUSTRY STANDARD API certification isn't enough for you?
What the heck do you want?
We're talking about oil that comes from a source that produces oils for
name brand companies that you seem to think are just fine. It's the same
product with different labels. You can make up all kinds of
preposterous, hypothetical problems, but you can't change the facts. If
you want to be paranoid and spending more money makes you feel more
secure, do whatever you want. But this fear-mongering of yours is
nothing but an attempt to project your insecurties on others; it has
nothing to do with the quality of the products we're discussing. Either
that, or you're just so desperate for your viewpoint to prevail in this
discussion that you'll say anything.
If you want to do some actual research into the products, this API site
is a good place to start:
http://eolcs.api.org/\index.html
You can look up anything you want to know about oils, certification
standards, licencees and more.
If you enter "super tech" in the "Brand Name Contains" box and do a
search, you'll see that most Super Tech oils are certified API SM, the
highest current rating, and all other Super Tech motor oils are
certified API SL (for 2004 and older cars). Here's a guide to what the
API certifications mean:
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/API_MotorOilGuide_2004.pdf
If you look at their recommendations, you'll notice that they're
strikingly similar to what Hyundai recommends for their engines.
Like I said, do whatever you want, but lets cut through all the crap, OK?
M
Mike Marlow
Matt - you've been making some pretty big assumptions about QA throughout
this thread. Where is the breakdown in QA in your mind? It's refined in
the same plants. The distinction comes more at the packaging end of things.
Sure - there is potential for problems at every step but those problems
exist for everyone. Do you really believe that Mobil or any other supplier
has a QA process that is so unique and so different from what Wal Mart or
any other private label similar to Wal Mart has? I really doubt it. There
just isn't that much room in the supply chain as it exists, for huge
disparities in QA like you're suggesting. Besides - you've not documented
any reason to believe that there even is a QA difference, so why do you keep
mentioning the QA point? At some point, this kind of thing becomes what we
call FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Most times, totally unfounded and
only intended to smear a competitor or a product when no valid evidence
exists.
M
Mike Marlow
Matt Whiting said:
Now that's a significant statement Matt - if it can be substantiated and
qualified. Can you share what kind of data you saw? What were the
parameters that differed and made that impression on you? How did those
parameters compare to standards? In other words - what were the specifics?
Is the data you saw available for review?
Standards do ensure that a product is indeed safe and proper for use - as
contrasted to arbitrary statements that "something may not be right". Not
to insult you but I'll accept standards certification long before I'll
accept your arguement that QA *may* not be up to snuff in the absense of any
evidence.
B
Bob Adkins
Again, that's a relic of the 1950's. Ain't gonna happen!
Even if it did happen, no oil bottler is immune to accidents.
B
Bob Adkins
Mike, I'm going to have to call you out on that one.
Since you seem to be calling me a liar, I'm asking you to show your data.
Not only what, but more importantly WHEN the testing was done. Pre historic
data doesn't count!
Oil is blended in modern plants, with state-of-the art equipment, all
computer controlled. There are many controls and check points, and
everything is recorded in logs. It's been that way for 20 years. It's a very
"settled" technology. If the button pusher or computer should glitch while
one brand is being bottled, that brand could possibly have some defective
bottles. One brand is just as likely to be defective as the others. The
color of the bottle has no bearing on anything.
Even if there is a breakdown of some kind, I bet buzzers and lights go off
all over the place, and the suspect bottles are rounded up and dumped into
the waste oil bin for re-processing. (or more likely, just dumped into
Mobil-1 bottles). <ROFL!>
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:
Oh boy, here we go again. Where's this data? EXACTLY how much of a
difference? What are the FUNCTIONAL differences?
I provided you with oil analysis data for Super Tech Full Synthetic
5W-30. Do you have anthing to refute the conclusions therein? Do you
have any data showing that any other oil is demonstrably superior in any
way? You can keep making vague references to an old motorcycle magazine
article if you wish, but that's not good enough. It's time to either put
up or shut up.
Define "far better". What does that nebulous term mean in the real
world? How much of a difference in lubrication are we talking about
during a typical oil change interval? Is there even ANY AT ALL?
It's convenient to throw around meaningless terms with nothing to back
them up or provide any context. The bottom line is that you simply don't
know, but you're not going to let that prevent you from making unfounded
claims. You read one article that's what, six years old, and that's
aparently become gospel for you. When you look at it that way, it seems
pretty ridiculous, doesn't it?
Again, a pointless attempt to confuse the issue with a specious argument.
If the SAE minimum standards exceed the requirements of engine
manufacturers - WHICH THEY CLEARLY DO - how can that possibly be a
problem? It can't be, except apparently in YOUR mind.
BTW, I'm a Quality Assurance Engineer, so you're really barking up the
wrong tree when you try to make such ridiculous claims.
The SAE has continuously raised its standards, which has resulted in
continuous improvements in oil quality. Does that mean all oils are the
same? Of course not, but the more you raise the standard, the smaller
the differences become, since the upper limit isn't changing much, if at
all. When you get right down to it, there hasn't been a truly
significant development in motor oils since the introduction of
synthetics. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a
poor-quality, API certified oil.
Speaking of synthetics, if natural oils are sufficient to meet the needs
of the engine(s) - WHICH THEY ARE ACCORDING TO HYUNDAI - synthetics,
which are demonstrably superior, are already a classic case of
"exceeding the need". What possible REAL-WORLD difference could it make
if one synthetic is fractionally "better" than another?
The truth is that unless you're trying to push an oil to the limits of
its life by abusing your engine (racing) or extending your change
intervals to 10K, 15K or more miles, it doesn't make any difference what
oil you use. As long as you use an API SL/SM certified oil and change it
at Hyundai's suggested intervals, there is not likely to be any
difference in normal driving. If you don't want to believe that, it's
your perogative, but your personal paranoia doesn't change anything.
Perhaps you just find all the brand-name hype and bluster comforting,
but the truth is that it's just noise, as are your arguments.
B
Bob Adkins
You neglected to say "best product". Wal-Mart is always looking for the best
products at the best prices. I would be disappointed if they didn't shop
around for something better and cheaper.
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:
Like you are trying to convince people that they can just buy the
cheapest products out there and have equivalence to better products?
What do you have against quality products and brand names?
What drives you to make up claims that all oils are created equal?
A standard isn't quality control. Don't you know the difference?
Show one piece of evidence that they are all the same exact products
with only different labels.
Yes, I know that oil producers have to pay to use the API symbol and
have to "certify" that their products meet the API standards, with the
threat of occasional spot checking by the API. Again, standards at best
give some assurance that a product meets a miniumum performance level,
but it certainly doesn't preclude a company from radically exceeding
those levels.
Most cars meet the government's minimum crash standards. Do you really
now believe that all cars are equally crashworthy? After all, they meet
the standard so they must all be equal, right?
Yes, I wish you would learn what standards mean. Hint: they don't mean
that all products tested against the standard are equal.
Matt
