Should I buy Hyundai?

[Matt Whiting]

In the dictionary, yes. As a means of being more economical or saving
engine wear, not necessarly.
Putting a .90 overdrive grear in a car then changing the rear from 3.08 to a
3.36 so it won't lug won't save you anything

It means the same in the dictionary and in practice as it did 20 years
ago. Tell me how it was different 20 years ago?

Exactly. Which is more economical, a regular trans with a 1:1 high gear and
a 3.08 rear of a 4.56 with overdrive? Arguments can be made for both being
best for different reasons but a blanket statement that "overdrive is
better" is not correct. Engines have changed too, with differing power and
torque curves than the Blue Flame 6.

I never said overdrive was better. I just said it means the same now as
it ever did, and that is simply that the transmission has ratios less
than 1:1. That is all it ever meant, no more and no less. And it means
exactly the same thing today.

Matt

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Don't know - what is the overdrive ratio? You're leaving out pieces of
the equation Edwin.

Yes, I did for a reason. The person that stated he wished he had overdrive
made his statement without saying anything more. My point is, having
overdrive is not necessarily a benefit. It may be, in the right engine and
gear combination, but it may hurt performance in other combinations. There
are many factors to take into consideration. Putting in a very high gear
ration in and of itself is the necessarily a good thing.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

It means the same in the dictionary and in practice as it did 20 years
ago. Tell me how it was different 20 years ago?

I'm talking in practice, not in dictionary terms. Years ago, you paid extra
for an "Overdrive" transmission and it was used on the highway to save gas.
In practical terms, using overdrive today is not necessarily a good or a bad
thing and it may not be best for a particular car. To say, as the poster did
"I whish it had overdrive" is without merit unless you know if the car is
going to perform properly with a higher gear ratio. It is did, the economy
conscious car makers would put it in so they can get a higher number of that
window sticker. If you are putting five gears in a transmission, it matters
little cost wise what the ratio is, but it matters greatly on performance.

Just like having 8 cylinders today. Most 6's will out perform the small
block V-8's of years ago. Or a turbocharged 4. Just having a certain number
of cylinders does not ensure a given performance level.

 

[Leonardo]

Correct. Overdrive is anything over a nominal 1:1. Still a very meaningful
term today. As has always been the case, final drive ratio is the key, but
overdrive determines what that ratio translates to in mileage - and
performance.

Maybe they ought to re-invent freewheeling.

L.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Correct. Overdrive is anything over a nominal 1:1. Still a very
meaningful term today. As has always been the case, final drive ratio is
the key, but overdrive determines what that ratio translates to in
mileage - and performance.

Overdrive is a term meaning the transmission high gear ratio is greater than
1:1. The final drive gear ratio determines mileage and performance,
overdrive or not. Having an overdrive ratio in the transmission does not
bestow magical qualities in and of itself. It is merely a part of an
engineered package.

Number or cylinders is not a measure of mileage or performance either. Nor
do many other popular misconceptions such as imported cars are small and get
better gas mileage. Or that Jaguars are unreliable. Oh, wait, that one is
true.

 

[Matt Whiting]

Overdrive is a term meaning the transmission high gear ratio is greater than
1:1. The final drive gear ratio determines mileage and performance,
overdrive or not. Having an overdrive ratio in the transmission does not
bestow magical qualities in and of itself. It is merely a part of an
engineered package.

I believe overdrive is a ratio LESS than 1:1, not greater than.

Matt

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I believe overdrive is a ratio LESS than 1:1, not greater than.

Matt

Yes, I was thinking in terms of low (first gear) and high, in which case it
is higher

 

[Matt Whiting]

Yes, I was thinking in terms of low (first gear) and high, in which case it
is higher

Yes, people refer to the gears as high or low, but the actual ratio is
lower for higher gears.

Matt

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Yes, people refer to the gears as high or low, but the actual ratio is
lower for higher gears.

Matt

Unless you are standing on the other side of it.

 

[Aeschylus]

Yes, I did for a reason. The person that stated he wished he had
overdrive made his statement without saying anything more. My point is,
having overdrive is not necessarily a benefit. It may be, in the right
engine and gear combination, but it may hurt performance in other
combinations. There are many factors to take into consideration. Putting
in a very high gear ration in and of itself is the necessarily a good
thing.

I made the original comment about wishing for an overdrive. Since 5th gear
apprently technically is an overdrive, what I should have said is that I
wish the Elantra had a 6th gear. To me, it just feels like it needs one
spinning 3000 RPM before it even gets to 70.

A.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I made the original comment about wishing for an overdrive. Since 5th
gear apprently technically is an overdrive, what I should have said is
that I wish the Elantra had a 6th gear. To me, it just feels like it
needs one spinning 3000 RPM before it even gets to 70.

A.

Not having driven one at that speed, I can't say. I'd have thought if thee
was an advantage to slowing the engine and getting better mileage, the
engineers would have done so today, but may not have back in the days of
cheap gas 50's and 60's. At lower RPM, it may not have the power to cruise
at 70 at a lower speed.

FWIW, my Sonata turns 2200 at 70
LeSabre turns 2000
Regal turns 2000

I had a rental Dodge Stratus a few years ago and it too was at or near 3000
rpm at 70

 

[Mike Marlow]

Overdrive is a term meaning the transmission high gear ratio is greater
than 1:1. The final drive gear ratio determines mileage and performance,
overdrive or not. Having an overdrive ratio in the transmission does not
bestow magical qualities in and of itself. It is merely a part of an
engineered package.

That's where you're missing the point Edwin. Overdrive effectively changes
the final drive ratio given that it's greater than 1:1. No, I know it does
not really change that ratio - it effectively changes it.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

That's where you're missing the point Edwin. Overdrive effectively
changes the final drive ratio given that it's greater than 1:1. No, I
know it does not really change that ratio - it effectively changes it.

Mike it is you that is missing the point. I know what overdrive is and what
it does.

My point is, unlike 50 years ago, it is not necessarily a benefit in a car
today as they are designed more for optimum performance at highway speed, be
it the high gear be 2:1, 1:1 or 1:2.

Go back 50+ years ago and most cars had 3 speed manual transmission with a
high gear of 1:1. As an option, you could get "Overdrive" for highway
driving. On at least some cars, it was mechanically activated by some other
means then the shift lever on the column. As time moved on and engines
improved, some cars were given four speed transmissions. In some, but not
all, cases, the top gear was an overdrive gear and it was not an option.
Others, mostly smaller cars, still had the top gear at 1:1 because they did
not have the power to operate properly with anything higher for the final
drive.. They have to run at 2500 to 3200 rpm to make the power needed to
drive the car.

What is important is the final drive ratio. How you get there is not as
important from the consumer end. It may be a 3.08 rear, or a 4.56. It may
or may not have overdrive and no, you don't get to choose it as an option
like you could in 1953. Back then, no one really cared about fuel cost and
the government did not mandate anything as is the case today. Thus,
drivetrains are built to optimize fuel and have as high a number for highway
mileage as possible.

Now, most importantly, put all of this in proper context with the original
comment and see how it fits in.

 

[Matt Whiting]

Mike it is you that is missing the point. I know what overdrive is and what
it does.

My point is, unlike 50 years ago, it is not necessarily a benefit in a car
today as they are designed more for optimum performance at highway speed, be
it the high gear be 2:1, 1:1 or 1:2.

It is exactly the same benefit today as 50 years ago. The only
difference is that today the overdrive ratio is integrated into the
transmission/transaxle rather than being a separate box as in the early
days. The fact that it is integrated rather than being tacked on makes
no difference in the function.

Go back 50+ years ago and most cars had 3 speed manual transmission with a
high gear of 1:1. As an option, you could get "Overdrive" for highway
driving. On at least some cars, it was mechanically activated by some other
means then the shift lever on the column. As time moved on and engines
improved, some cars were given four speed transmissions. In some, but not
all, cases, the top gear was an overdrive gear and it was not an option.
Others, mostly smaller cars, still had the top gear at 1:1 because they did
not have the power to operate properly with anything higher for the final
drive.. They have to run at 2500 to 3200 rpm to make the power needed to
drive the car.

The advantage of an overdrive ratio in the transmission is that you can
use a lower (higher numerical ratio) final drive ratio to allow easy
starts and good acceleration in the lower gears, yet still have a lower
RPM in high gear. There is nothing magical about having an overdrive
ratio in the transmission as the same affect could be obtained by
lowering all of the transmission ratios and raising the final drive
ratio. I think the balance has more to do with the logistics of gear
sizes than anything else. Very small gears driving very large gears
places a lot of stress on the small gear and thus avoiding large
numerical ratios is probably a good thing.

However, the point remains that the 4 or 5 speed transmissions today
accomplish exactly the same thing as did the old 3 and 4 speed
transmissions with a separate overdrive gearbox. No difference other
than packaging.

What is important is the final drive ratio. How you get there is not as
important from the consumer end. It may be a 3.08 rear, or a 4.56. It may
or may not have overdrive and no, you don't get to choose it as an option
like you could in 1953. Back then, no one really cared about fuel cost and
the government did not mandate anything as is the case today. Thus,
drivetrains are built to optimize fuel and have as high a number for highway
mileage as possible.

No, what is important is OVERALL drive ratio. The final drive ratio is
easily offset by the transmission ratios and isn't the final determinant
of how fast the engine spins for a given road speed. Unfortunately,
some people use final drive ratio as a synonym for overall drive ratio,
but that doesn't make it correct.

Here is the correct definition:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-072a.htm

Now, most importantly, put all of this in proper context with the original
comment and see how it fits in.

I agree, please do this!

Matt

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

It is exactly the same benefit today as 50 years ago. The only difference
is that today the overdrive ratio is integrated into the
transmission/transaxle rather than being a separate box as in the early
days. The fact that it is integrated rather than being tacked on makes no
difference in the function.

No shit, you figured out what I've been saying. It may or may not be
integrated. If it works, it is, if it does not work for that particular
drivetrain in that particular vehicle, it is not. It is not offered as an
option any more.

There is nothing magical about having an overdrive ratio in the
transmission as the same affect could be obtained by lowering all of the
transmission ratios and raising the final drive ratio. I think the
balance has more to do with the logistics of gear sizes than anything
else. Very small gears driving very large gears places a lot of stress on
the small gear and thus avoiding large numerical ratios is probably a good
thing.

However, the point remains that the 4 or 5 speed transmissions today
accomplish exactly the same thing as did the old 3 and 4 speed
transmissions with a separate overdrive gearbox. No difference other than
packaging.

By golly, I think you've got it! I knew you had it in you. I've not taken
a survey of gear ratios, not do I intend to, but they may or may not be an
overdrive ratio. It is what drives that particular vehicle the best.

Unfortunately, some people use final drive ratio as a synonym for
overall drive ratio, but that doesn't make it correct.

And Matt would never leave a nit unpicked. (neither would I)

 

[Matt Whiting]

No shit, you figured out what I've been saying. It may or may not be
integrated. If it works, it is, if it does not work for that particular
drivetrain in that particular vehicle, it is not. It is not offered as an
option any more.



By golly, I think you've got it! I knew you had it in you. I've not taken
a survey of gear ratios, not do I intend to, but they may or may not be an
overdrive ratio. It is what drives that particular vehicle the best.

Great, I'm glad you agree that your statement that overdrive today is
different from overdrive of years gone by was incorrect. Overdrive is
the same now as it was 50 years ago functionally. Only the packaging
has changed. I knew you'd come around!!

And Matt would never leave a nit unpicked. (neither would I)

But of course!

Matt

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Overdrive is the same now as it was 50 years ago functionally. Only the
packaging has changed. I knew you'd come around!!

But the original subject was "is overdrive needed?" It is not always a
benefit. Not every car has it, no matter the number of gears in the
transmission.

 

[Matt Whiting]

But the original subject was "is overdrive needed?" It is not always a
benefit. Not every car has it, no matter the number of gears in the
transmission.

Sure it is a benefit. It allows a lower (higher numerically) final
drive ratio which allows a lower 1st gear overall drive ratio to making
starting out easier.

Matt

 

[Mike Marlow]

Mike it is you that is missing the point. I know what overdrive is and
what it does.

My point is, unlike 50 years ago, it is not necessarily a benefit in a car
today as they are designed more for optimum performance at highway speed,
be it the high gear be 2:1, 1:1 or 1:2.

Go back 50+ years ago and most cars had 3 speed manual transmission with a
high gear of 1:1. As an option, you could get "Overdrive" for highway
driving. On at least some cars, it was mechanically activated by some
other means then the shift lever on the column. As time moved on and
engines improved, some cars were given four speed transmissions. In some,
but not all, cases, the top gear was an overdrive gear and it was not an
option. Others, mostly smaller cars, still had the top gear at 1:1 because
they did not have the power to operate properly with anything higher for
the final drive.. They have to run at 2500 to 3200 rpm to make the power
needed to drive the car.

What is important is the final drive ratio. How you get there is not as
important from the consumer end. It may be a 3.08 rear, or a 4.56. It
may or may not have overdrive and no, you don't get to choose it as an
option like you could in 1953. Back then, no one really cared about fuel
cost and the government did not mandate anything as is the case today.
Thus, drivetrains are built to optimize fuel and have as high a number for
highway mileage as possible.

Now, most importantly, put all of this in proper context with the original
comment and see how it fits in.

It fits as I've been saying all along. We're not really saying much
different. I understand well the history of overdrive, but the overdrive in
a car today serves the same purpose as it ever did - to reduct engine rpm
and save fuel. Even in the good old days it served the purpose of saving
fuel. You are correct that today's engines are more efficient, but they are
indeed designed with an overdrive in mind.

The final drive ratio is a determining factor but not the single determining
factor. Regardless of what the final ratio is, an overdrive is still going
to have the same effect of dropping engine rpm's at cruise. That's all
overdrive was intended to do.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Sure it is a benefit. It allows a lower (higher numerically) final drive
ratio which allows a lower 1st gear overall drive ratio to making starting
out easier.

Matt

Sure, but not every car can take advantage of it. Some do, so don't. Other
factors are important also.