What to do to a new Elantra?

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Reply to message from "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> (Thu, 03 Jan
2008 23:43:01) about "Re: Torquing lug nuts":

MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they
MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs
MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs?

Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post -
there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try
to force then POV down our throats.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <[email protected]> Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:44:58 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3
 
Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that is
the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my exposed
studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads in as
nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in which I
drive.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I was getting at Matt. The effects of friction on
torque work both ways. Too little (owing to grease) have one adverse effect
on torque readings, while more friction (as expected from not new fasteners)
will likewise have a similar effect, although in the opposite direction.
Advocates that suggest addressing one side of that issue by pointing out
that lubricants affect torque values don't address the other side of that
value line, which is that stud in normal use display an equal disassociation
from the theoretical perfect stud.
 
Wayne Moses said:
Reply to message from "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> (Thu, 03
Jan
2008 23:43:01) about "Re: Torquing lug nuts":

MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they
MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs
MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs?

Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post -
there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try
to force then POV down our throats.
Click to expand...

I just knew there was another great mind out there Wayne. Us great thinkers
have to stick together...
 
Mike said:
That's pretty much what I was getting at Matt. The effects of friction on
torque work both ways. Too little (owing to grease) have one adverse effect
on torque readings, while more friction (as expected from not new fasteners)
will likewise have a similar effect, although in the opposite direction.
Advocates that suggest addressing one side of that issue by pointing out
that lubricants affect torque values don't address the other side of that
value line, which is that stud in normal use display an equal disassociation
from the theoretical perfect stud.
Click to expand...

Mike, you explained my point better than I did. This is exactly what I
meant. I have yet to find a reference to support this, but I did find
one that supports my earlier assertion that most engineers prefer
properly lubricated fasteners rather than dry fasteners as the
variability in bolt tension achieved is less. Maybe others disagree,
but even with their problems, I still consider NASA a pretty reputable
source with respect to things technical. Look at page 3-6 and note that
the variability is reduced substantially with lubricated vs. dry fasteners.

Matt

snebulos.mit.edu/projects/reference/NASA-Generic/NSTS_08307_RevA.pdf
 
Wayne said:
Reply to message from "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> (Thu, 03 Jan
2008 23:43:01) about "Re: Torquing lug nuts":

MM> Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they
MM> specify an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs
MM> that have already been turned on several time versus brand new studs?

Good points indeed. I believe I made a similar point also in my post -
there are no absolutes, no matter how many times some dogmatic posters try
to force then POV down our throats.
Click to expand...

Yes, very true. However, it is pretty widely accepted in the
engineering community that threads with rust, spalling, or other surface
damage will not achieve a reliable amount of tension when torque is used
as the sole measure of fastener tension. Using a lubricant lessens the
chance of such thread damage as does my practice of using grease to keep
road salt and moisture off of my lug studs.

Obviously, the average garage and motorist can't be counted on to
properly lubricate lug stud threads, therefore the auto makers provide
"clean and dry" torque values and just accept the risk of thread damage
over time.

If I lived in an arid region, then I would not use any thread protection
at all as it would be unnecessary. In PA and NY where road salt is
heavily used for at least 4 months of the year, exposed lug stud threads
simply will not survive many years without some protection. I tend to
keep my vehicles a long time (my K1500 pickup is a 1994 and thus 14
years old), and you simply can't keep the threads "clean and dry" in my
area without some form of protection applied to them. My Chevy has
pretty tight fitting plastic center covers in the allow wheels and these
keep the studs pretty clean, but they still get moisture from
condensation if nothing else. A little grease used properly keeps the
studs like new even after 14 years, 100,000+ miles and at least 10 tire
rotations, plus 14 wheel removals for annual state inspections. I've
seen cars that are half the age of my truck and have lug studs where the
threads are virtually rust away on the first 1/8" of so of the stud and
the damage often extends past where the threads enter the lug nuts.

Matt
 
Wayne said:
MW> This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.

Wasn't dead when I found the time to drop by. Besides you being a licensed
engineer surely is not dead nor is the fact that it seemed to not matter to
those with viewpoints other than yours.

Personally I prefer to contribute when I can and I resist the temptation to
tell people what to do.
Click to expand...

I don't mind offering advice when I have advice to offer. I believe I
do with respect to the original question about what steps to take to
ensure that fasteners on a car don't rust in place.
MW> Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?

Does the answer to either question matter?
Click to expand...

Sure. When I see someone who claims to be an engineer, I like to know
they are legitimate and I tend to look them up to be sure. I was not
able to find your name listed so I was simply confirming.

Also, when I find an educated person that can't spell a simple word like
license, it makes me suspicious also. However, I found that even this
web site prominently misspells the word in one of its headers! :-)

http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/imm_incanada_1.cfm

I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario.
Click to expand...

Do they have an online license verification registry? Most US states
now provide this service, but I haven't found a site yet for provinces
in Canada.

Regards,
Matt
 
Reply to message from Matt Whiting <[email protected]> (Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:
26:08) about "Re: Torquing lug nuts":

MW> Also, when I find an educated person that can't spell a simple word
MW> like license, it makes me suspicious also.

What about grammar? In your sentence above the word preceding "... can't
spell..." should be "who". ;-)

It so happens that I sort of agree with you but one has to qualify
'educated'. Any experienced engineer to whom things like this matter would
tell you that engineers, despite their level of education, are poor
spellers, poor in grammar and even poor communicators. Thus we may be
flogging a dead horse on this issue.

Suffice it to say that I was writing my reply on a pocket PC using
handwriting recognition software to translate my cursive hand in to text.
So I think I can be forgiven my spelling error. AAMOF I am presently
replying on the same platform.

Besides I was raised and educated using British English spelling as opposed
to (American English) so you may find other words to pick on from time to
time.

MW> http://www.engineerscanada.ca/e/ imm_incanada_1.cfm

Try http://peo.on.ca and while you are at it you may want to visit the
SNAME website. As a naval architect I am a member of that institution.

http://sname org

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <[email protected]> Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:14:08 -0600

=== Posted with Qusnetsoft NewsReader 3.3
 
Hi, I drive 2005 tiburon. I live in NY. What kind of grease do you use on
the studs to protect them? or is any kind of grease fine? what exactly do
you guys mean buy dry and clean? I've read that the lugs should be torqued
to 80ft/lbs. I've been doing this and have had no problems. Torque the
lugs often will lead to damage? Thats not good seeing as how i want to
rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000
miles.
 
paxfaux said:
Hi, I drive 2005 tiburon. I live in NY. What kind of grease do you use on
the studs to protect them? or is any kind of grease fine? what exactly do
you guys mean buy dry and clean? I've read that the lugs should be torqued
to 80ft/lbs. I've been doing this and have had no problems. Torque the
lugs often will lead to damage? Thats not good seeing as how i want to
rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000
miles.
Click to expand...

I use either wheel bearing grease or plain old Vaseline. Be clear in
that I apply the grease only to the exposed part of the stud AFTER the
lug nut has been torqued properly.

Clean and dry means just that. Use a solvent to wipe down the lug stud
(brake cleaner works quite well for this) and then let it dry before you
torque the lug nuts. Now, I personally don't do this, but then I've
torqued fasteners for 35 years and I've got a pretty good feel for what
is enough so I don't worry about a little residual grease on the threads.

However, I would not recommend that anyone else do anything other than
follow the manufacturer's recommendations and they pretty much always
specify dry torque values for lug nuts. I think that is nuts, but that
is another story entirely...

Matt
 
I use either wheel bearing grease or plain old Vaseline. Be clear in
that I apply the grease only to the exposed part of the stud AFTER the
lug nut has been torqued properly.

Clean and dry means just that. Use a solvent to wipe down the lug stud
(brake cleaner works quite well for this) and then let it dry before you
torque the lug nuts. Now, I personally don't do this, but then I've
torqued fasteners for 35 years and I've got a pretty good feel for what
is enough so I don't worry about a little residual grease on the threads.

However, I would not recommend that anyone else do anything other than
follow the manufacturer's recommendations and they pretty much always
specify dry torque values for lug nuts. I think that is nuts, but that
is another story entirely...

Matt
Click to expand...

I had my car at a tire shop recently. I specifically requested that
they torque the lug nuts by hand and a torque wrench rather than the
air wrench. They complied but acted as if this was a very unusual
request.

Old_Timer
 
paxfaux said:
Thats not good seeing as how i want to
rotate my tires every 3,000 miles to help them last longer then 12,000
miles.
Click to expand...

You only get 12k out of a set of tires? Do you get many traffic tickets?
 
The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit my
wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000 miles. And
from my experience, that is true. My father has a chrysler 300 with 18''
wheels and his tires lasted about 14,000 so there must be something to it.


Matt, the lug nut sits pretty tight agains the wheel, but the studs could
be exposed behind the wheel? Is that where you use the vasaline? Is it
worth doing in the summer months as well?
 
paxfaux said:
The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit my
wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000 miles. And
from my experience, that is true. My father has a chrysler 300 with 18''
wheels and his tires lasted about 14,000 so there must be something to it.


Matt, the lug nut sits pretty tight agains the wheel, but the studs could
be exposed behind the wheel? Is that where you use the vasaline? Is it
worth doing in the summer months as well?
Click to expand...

There is no way I know of to get behind the wheel and that generally
isn't a big problem in any event. If your lug stud is about flush with
the nut, then I'd just smear a thin film over the end of the stud and
the groove where the threads start so that water can't follow the threads.

No, probably not necessary in the summer unless you live in a very humid
area or near the ocean.

Matt
 
Hello paxfaux,

p> The guys at the local tire shope tell me you can't get a tire to fit
p> my wheels (17''x7.5'') that will last longer then 12,000 - 15,000
p> miles. And from my experience, that is true.

???!

I have a Tiburon that has 17" x 7.5" wheels (I believe) and it has the factory
215 x 45 x 17 Michelins on it. The car has over 23,000 miles on it and the
tires have a ways to go yet before they wear out. I don't normally peel my
tires but I corner pretty aggressively from time to time. I also rotate them
every 7500 miles or so. I expect to get at least 30,000 from them if not
more.

So the guys at the tire shop are wrong.

Regards,
Wayne Moses
Houston, Texa
 
If you say so. I had the Pilots on for at least 22,000 myself but they
should have been changed long before that. by the time i changed them
they were almost down to the steel. You can say they are wrong but the
tires still ware out by 15,000. I'm talking about the penny test, there
is still plenty of visible tread at 15,000 but its still time for new
tires. I don't "peel out" either.
 
The 18" Bridgestones on my 07 Santa Fe now have 16K miles on them and
show very little wear. I usually get at least 50K miles from a set of
tires. Maybe the roads you drive on are paved with broken glass or else
you burn rubber at every start.
 

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