sludge

'Dave, you've said you are a Christian. So am I'

REPLY: Glad to hear that Matt. So, if you were to die very
unexpectedly tonight and stand before God immediatly, how would you
answer the question of him asking you :" Matt, why should i let you into
Heaven for eternity ?" .

'Do you have first-hand experience with alcohol? illegal drugs?
prostitutes? homosexuality? or any other things that you consider to be
sinful?'

REPLY: Yes on most of those, prior to acceptance of making Christ the
Lord of my everyday life.

'If not, does that mean that you don't condemn such activities since you
lack personal experience with them?'

REPLY: I dont need to condemn some activity based on IF i have had
first hand experience with them ; the absolute answer to whether they
are right or not is found in 'The Manufacturers Manual' aka : The Bible
If the Bible listed The Bilstien Flush Machine as a credible
thing..then that would be good enough for me without even seeing one.
If it isnt listed there, then, the next best thing would be to undergo
an intensive investigation into it including a careful examination of
the evidence (a detailed written explanation of how it works, pictures,
its goal(s) , eye witness testimony, etc...). Unless i had done this,
it would be presumptuous of me to give a relative opinion when i could
have given a later absolute conviction as to its credibility. Hope
that helps Matt. Dave.

 

''I wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this
magic machine?
Matt'

The same way they did before Capacitive Discharge Ignition
Systems came along.

What's that got to do with normal, production vehicles - Sonata,
Elantra, Taurus, etc?'

REPLY: Everything. Cars have been working reasonably well for nearly
100 years now ; but as time marches forward and technology
increases....there are more advantageous methods and ways which were not
known some 100 years ago. Such is the case with preventive maintenance
/ repair techniques on modern cars versus old ones.

 

But my question was: What point are you trying to make by relating the way
cars have operated prior to the existence of the de-sludging machine - which
I guess could be used on most any vehicle - to something like CDI, which is
not present on, and cannot be adapted to be used with most normal vehicles?

 

That is a topic for a different newsgroup.

And you have the manufacturer's manual for your Hyundai also. It is
called the owner's manual. Does it specify engine flushing using the
Bilstein machine? If not, then why do you think it is necessary?

I have investigated what I saw published about the Bilstein machine. It
is simply an unnecessary gimmick, just like so many others designed to
separate people from their money. Things such as transmission flushing
machines, oil additives, etc.


Matt

 

CDI provided demonstrable advantages. That is why car makers switched
to using them. Engine flushes don't have demonstrable advantages, that
is why no car make recommends them.


Matt

 

I should have figured you'd just spew all this nonsensical rhetoric.
Typical. Well, at least you're doing more to alienate people from your
cause than to convert them, so there will fewer zealots like you in the
future.

 

Car makers determined that there were not enough advantages to CDI under
normal operating conditions to use them. I'm pretty certain that high
performance cars like the Viper, and whatever else along the same lines
might use it, but I'm not sure. NASCAR doesn't use it.

 

Ooooooooo.... really bad example Bob. NASCAR doesn't use a lot of really
beneficial technologies. Things like fuel injection, any sort of computer,
traction control, etc. immediately come to mind. NASCAR cars are an
excellent example of 1970's technology serving a very specific purpose, and
not a very good example of technologies that have a purpose in modern day
vehicles.

 

'But my question was: What point are you trying to make by relating the
way cars have operated prior to the existence of the de-sludging machine
- which I guess could be used on most any vehicle - to something like
CDI, which is not present on, and cannot be adapted to be used with most
normal vehicles?'

REPLY: I was indicating that many things that are now used or can be
added on a vehicle (Desludging machine, CDI , EFI, etc, etc...) werent
used on automobiles in the distant past yet they operated fairly well
without them. This however, doesnt mean that they are not beneficial for
us today.

 

'Dave, you've said you are a Christian. So am I'
Glad to hear that Matt. So, if you were to die very
unexpectedly tonight and stand before God immediatly, how would you
answer the question of him asking you :" Matt, why should i let you into
Heaven for eternity ?" .

That is a topic for a different newsgroup.

REPLY: Then feel free to email me with the answer you would give.

'And you have the manufacturer's manual for your Hyundai also. It is
called the owner's manual. Does it specify engine flushing using the
Bilstein machine? If not, then why do you think it is necessary?'

REPLY: I dont believe i ever said 'it is necessary' (??) However i do
think it is advantageous . Does the Hyundai Manual recommend using
synthetic fluids in the drivetrain ... even though synthetic fluids have
a distinct advantage over the non types ?

'I have investigated what I saw published about the Bilstein machine. It
is simply an unnecessary gimmick, just like so many others designed to
separate people from their money. Things such as transmission flushing
machines, oil additives, etc.
Matt '

REPLY: Good...then youve taken the first step. If you have a Pep Boys
or other place that uses the exact machine, then stop by and ask them if
you can watch it being used as you have the desire to fully evaluate it.

 

'CDI provided demonstrable advantages. That is why car makers switched
to using them. Engine flushes don't have demonstrable advantages, that
is why no car make recommends them.
Matt '

REPLY: Synthetic fluids have demonstrable advantages, yet not all Car
Mfg's recommend them in their owners manual. Same with K and N intake
air filters and a host of other things.

 

I think the underlying question is "is XXX really beneficial"? If a motor
will predictably run 200,000 plus miles, and has reliably exhibited this
capability using nothing more than regular changes of simple dino motor oil,
what is the real world advantage of the flush? Sure - it demonstrates that
it removes at least some of the sludge, but at what measurable benefit? The
car as a whole is likely not worth the effort in attempting to get another
200,000 miles from, so that infamous rule of diminishing returns quickly
becomes a consideration. For what it's worth - this is the very argument I
use to support my continued use of dino oil instead of synthetics.

 

Which is EXACTLY the reason I asked him to answer this question in
alt.rv: "Am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?"

Did I mention about his "OT
and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing"?

I like to google (yes it's a recognized verb now) up people before
entering into a discussion with them.
He has a long record of this same behavior.

 

Another bad example. The oil from a K&N can damage your air flow sensor.

 

I'll interject here that Dave's experience is one of the few actual
benefits of an engine flush. If you do happen to get something lodged in
a small passage, the flusher could possibly push it out.

If I had a customer with a valve tap, I'd recommend trying an engine flush
prior to engaging in extensive and costly engine repairs. What's to lose?


But it's also important to know that success in these endeavors is mixed.
I've stopped some valve taps with the machine, but others still remained.
I had one car flushed after the owner failed to change the oil and the
delivery passages were restricted. It bought the customer about 6 months
before the bearing clearances were bad enough that the oil pressure was
low.

I don't have a problem with the flusher, particularly. Like most things,
it has a usefulness that cannot be denied. But the issue is that services
like this marketed as some sort of regular maintenance service or some
magic bullet. Well, they aren't. There's no benefit to flushing an
engine crankcase that has no problem.

If your engine is sludged, but you are having no actual oiling issues, the
procedure has no more value than adding 1/2 qt. of ATF with each oil
change, and, like Matt correctly pointed out, the flush can *cause*
problems if pieces of sludge are knocked loose into the oil pan. With no
oiling issues, it'd be far better to try to gradually dissolve the sludge.

 

It isn't relevant to engine flushing.

No, and I would never say that anyone should use them unless they want
the very well documented benefits. I use synthetics purely for the cold
starting advantage. They are overkill in pretty much every other way as
I don't run extended drain intervals and I don't race, etc. However,
for me the cold start benefit alone is worth the incremental cost. The
"data" at the Bilstein site was feeble even if true, with claimed
performance that isn't even above the measurement noise floor. This
isn't true with synthetic lubricants. There is tons of data from many
sources as to the benefit, so much so that some car makers (Chevrolet
with the Vette and Porsche) actually specify it.

Comparing engine flushing with synthetic oil is as specious as your
comparision to electronic ignition.

I wouldn't let a Pep Boys employee within 10 feet of my car. I stopped
at an Autozone once to get the free scan tool read on my Plymouth van as
the MIL was lit. They gave me a code that made no sense at all as it
was a part that had been just recently replaced. I went to a Chrysler
dealer and they gave me the correct problem code. Places like that
can't even use a scan tool correctly. You think I'd let them access the
internals of my engine? Not going to happen.

Well, it is obvious that you are one of the folks that P.T. Barnum
talked about. Reason won't work with you so I'm done with this thread.

Matt

 

Because the advantages aren't needed in most cases. Chevrolet and
Porsche do specify synthetics. My K1500 requires a specific Castrol
synthetic gear lube in the manual transmission.

K&N filters are a great way to ruin your engine as they pass a lot more
dirt than do conventional paper filters. Sure, you get a little more
performance, but you give up engine life. If you are a racer, this is a
worthwhile trade. It is a fool's choice for a street vehicle.


Matt

 

As the dirt passed by the filter damages your rings, pistons and
cylinder walls.

Matt

 

What's to lose is your engine if you dislodge a large piece of gunk and
clog up the passage to a main bearing in the process of opening up the
passage to the lifter. Personally, I'd try running a synthetic oil for
a change or two first. Jumping right to an engine flush is like driving
a finishing nail with a 5 lb maul. Sure, it'll drive the nail, but
it'll also leave a large dent in the finished wood!


Matt

 

Yep. No better than using an old sock flooded with oil.

JS