2002 Sonata-still needs work

Well, I've posted about this car for the past two years, I've
driven it for one, it's now due for inspection and I need to
resolve as many issues as I can before cold weather sets in here.

The Car- 2002 Hyundai Sonata V6 2.7, 105K, overall good shape,
have all maintenance records since new, bought from original
owner 2 years ago for $3500.00

Goal- to make the car roadworthy, legal, and reliable. I am going
on the assumption that if I service the car now, I should get
another 5 years out of the car with no serious problems. If I'm
lucky <g>. Beyond 5 years, it may become my "beater" or, finances
permitting, I will get something newer. I walk to work and drive
about 3K miles/yr, mostly on my "beater" '92 Nissan Sentra.

How- I'm planning on having the local dealer do the work, mainly
because I can't get around going to a dealer for the recall work
and it's not worth it to me, time-wise, to "shop around"

Cost- whatever it takes, within reason. I did the brakes (pads,
rotors, calipers all around)myself, I could probably do the work
myself, but I don't really have the time and it's going to be to
cold to do it in the driveway soon.

What- The timing belt has never, AFAIK, been changed, seriously
interfering with my enjoyment of the car wondering if each drive
will be my last. So, timing belt, tensioner, idler, and water
pump. Dealer quoted me $400.00 on the belt, and $200.00 on the
pump. OK on the belt, high for the pump, but...whatever.

Since the pump is being done, time for new coolant. Should I
replace the radiator hoses, or any other hoses, that are now 7
years old? I know hoses don't fail like they did in the old days;
I suspect many cars are going to the junkyard with the factory
hoses these days.

Change ATF and filter. It's been done once or twice but with a
generic ATF which seems to be acceptable but I would prefer to
spend the next few years knowing I had Hyundai fluid and that the
tranny had been serviced by the dealer.

Recall on the engine cradle- they will drill holes in it,
probably, or replace the cradle (not likely, but possible).

Recall on the inside door handles- the chrome is flaking off,
leaving sharp edges.

Reprogram the ECM- The CEL is on and my scanner says P1134
Manufacturer Control Fuel Air Metering, which may mean 02 sensor,
but it may be a bug in the ECM which can be fixed with an update.

Tune up- I'm still up in the air about this. Seems to mean
"replace the spark plugs and wires". I would like to have this
done as at 100K it would seem to be time and my MPG could be a
little higher. OTOH, I've seen prices of $300+ here on this
group. I know it involves some labor, but this seems excessive.
For $300, I would do it myself, I think

Belt(s)- probably get whatever belts there are replaced while
it's there. I will pay whatever the dealer wants for the belt,
but I might try for a pass on the labor, since it has to come off
anyhow and I think I'm throwing them a $100 bone on the water pump.

So, I want to go to the dealer with a "laundry list", get a
quote, and make an appointment to leave the car a day or two. I'm
guessing about $800-1200 depending on the "tune up" and the 02
sensor. I would welcome any input about what to do, how to ask
for it, anything else that should be done while it's in, etc.

 

Actually, this price is very good on both the water pump and timing
belt with tensioner. I'd skip the idler, figuring I'd hear the
squealing/screeching if it died. But hey, your car, your money, your
reassurance.

I'd not bother with the hoses unless you can see a problem. Nearly
every coolant hose I've replaced on a Hyundai in the last 5 years had
been due to corrosion buildup on the aluminum engine component to
which it attaches.

If you do replace them, do not under any circumstances accept
aftermarket. I had a hearer hose burst on my Taurus. I hadn't
replaced the heater hoses when I did other coolant work because I saw
they'd already been replaced. When I removed the burst Gates hose, I
found the rubber was only about half as thick as that on the factory
hose I was installing to correct the problem.

If the wrong fluid was installed, I'd recommend a flush/fluid
exchange, not just a drain and refill.

The dealer can check your vin to see if this reprogramming recall has
been performed on your car. If so, expect to pay for an oxygen
sensor.

If your plugs were replaced at 60k as specified in the maintenance
chart, you should be able to wait another 25k before having this
done. If they've never been replaced, have the plugs and wires
replace (or do it yourself).

Dealer should be willing to hang a new drive belt for no additional
labor since they're removing it to do the timing belt/water pump.
Additionally, the reason the water pump is $200 is because they're
combining it with the timing belt. Otherwise it'd probably be about
$500. Normal charge with timing belt is 1 hour labor plus cost of
water pump, gasket, and coolant.

Just call up and tell them what you want done. They'll be happy to
get a job of this size.

 

Well, this was over a year ago. They are now quoting me $450 for
a "package", which is the timing belt and drive belt. The say the
tensioner and idler "are not usually done".

The service manager says the filter is permanent. The tranny
flush is $169.00

He said the ECM program will not fix a "hard error" that sets
the CEL. He couldn't tell me how much for an 02 sensor; I have to
pay $99.95 for the diagnostic. Then he will quote me.

He quoted me 1 hour labor on the pump. He said they would
"check if it was leaking". I told him I wanted it replaced while
they were in there. The coolant flush is $40.00 which was the
only quote that seemed quite reasonable.

Well, their website said they were open to 8PM, and I got there
at seven, but I guess the service dept. closes at seven because
he didn't want to really talk to me about the repair. Said he
would call me tomorrow and quote me then. I really considered
calling the whole thing off and doing the work myself, but I
*can't* do the recall or the state inspection myself. The other
dealer got even worse customer reviews on-line, and the one that
got recommended is an hour's drive away. Well, I'll see what he
says tomorrow. Still welcome any advice/opinions.

 

Plague Boy wrote:

<snip>

OK, I heard from the service manager about noon today. I need an
o2 sensor. It's $230.00 parts and labor. I'm not sure if that
includes the $99.95 diagnostic.

He also told me that they could not inspect the vehicle and pass
it until I drove it about 150 miles to turn the light off/reset
the code. They can't force the ECM to run that test. So I now get
to drive an uninspected vehicle 150 unneccessary miles and burn
$25.00 worth of gas.

I wish I just bought the o2 sensor and put it in myself, but I
really haven't had time and I was hoping the ECM reprogram would
fix the problem.

The timing belt, idler, tensioner, drive belt and water pump is
$950.00

The plugs and wires are $450.00.

So, add on the tranny flush at $169.00 and sales tax and I'm
looking at about two grand. So I told the dealer to put in the o2
sensor and do the 2 recalls. Everything else can wait; I don't
drive the car much. I've been using the '92 Sentra when I go
anywhere because I'm concerned about the timing belt breaking.
So, I'll see what my regular mechanic says he'll do the timing
belt for, and then decide if that's viable or if I should just do
all the work myself. I'll have to do the work outside and it's
getting pretty cold for long days under a car. Feh!

 

Agree with nearly everything the dealer told you except the part
above. Hyundai has a reprogram available for your vehicle which
they'll do for free for this particular code. Of course, if it's
already been done, then you do indeed need the oxygen sensor at your
expense. If you'd like, you can post your vin or e-mail it to me, and
I'll check whether the campaign is still open.

 

I'd take a vacation day from work and take my wife out for the day and take
a fall ride to the mountains. IMO, that time is not wasted. Add in the
cost of a nice lunch too.

That sounds insane. I'd be talking to some independent shops.

 

It sounds like a good time to trade it in for something newer.


---MIKE---

 

Hmmm. I hate to admit it, but this is the *only* decent car I
have ever owned. I haven't had the best luck with it so far,
which is really not the car's fault. I guess I could see what I
could get for it as a trade in. I think I'd do better to just
pass on the work and take my chances. If the timing belt lasts
another 20K, at the amount I drive it will have rusted to peices
by that point. The tranny seems fine, it runs fine with the plugs
and wires it has, and clearly even if a tune-up boosted my gas
milage by 10%, I would never recoup my $450. The water pump may
well last the life of the car and I can flush the coolant myself.

Still, I really just want to feel confident in the car and drive
it for a few more years. I really was prepared to drop a grand or
so into the car to not have to do it my self.

 

Well, I'm actually getting "compensatory time off" from work
Friday because I worked last Sunday and they don't want to pay
overtime. I then have to work again Saturday, so it's not a three
day weekend, which would be nice.

So, I'm planning on a big shopping trip. Maybe a day trip would
be a nice break, though. I don't have a wife, so I would have to
rent one for the day, another expense of $50-500 depending on the
length of the trip and whether it was "around the world" or not,
and the size of the "mountains".

I am considering talking to my regular mechanic, I'm sure he'll
be more reasonable. I still am thinking about doing it myself and
pocketing the difference. If only it was warm out.....

 

Update-

I dropped the car off Monday night, they said they would call me
Tues with quote. $950 for timing belt, tensioner, idler and water
pump. $450 for plugs and wires. $169 for tranny flush. $230 for
O2 sensor.

I told them to do the recall on the engine cradle and door
handles and the O2 sensor. They said they would call me when it
was ready, which I presumed would be that day (Tues.) No call.
Figured I'd hear from them Wed, but no call. Finally called them
Thurs since I had put in for Fri off to drive the car to get it
ready for inspection. They said it was ready. Guess they don't
actually call you when it's ready.

So, I went and picked it up, with some trepidation. The total
was $230.00 with tax. About $150.00 for labor and $54.74 for the
sensor.

Since they told me it would be $99.95 for the "diagnostic" and
they apparently rolled that into the labor, they charged me about
$50 to install the sensor, which seems fair. The price of the
sensor seems quite reasonable with what I've seen on-line, and,
although the $100 for them to hook it to the computer sucks,
especially since I already had the error code from my own
scanner, it's really to be expected so I won't complain.

They didn't seem to have any interest in reprogramming the ECM.
I got rushed through the drop-off because they were closing when
I brought it in. It looks as if, even though their web page says
they are open until 8, they actually close now at 7. Since I got
no reply to my email I sent a month ago trying to set the
recall/repairs up in advance, I'm guessing their "web presence"
is a red-headed stepchild.

I couldn't tell if they replaced the engine cradle or just
drilled it (invoice lists both) so I asked the service manager.
He looked at the invoice and said they replaced it. I'm dubious
(I don't think he's *lying*, just *mistaken*) but I will look and
see if it looks "replaced".

So, overall, my first "dealer" experience was..so so. They fixed
the car (I *hope*) and it wasn't outrageously expensive, although
I probably would have just bought the O2 sensor and put it in if
possible if I had known they wouldn't give the ECM reprogram a
shot first. I guess it's a bitch, but for $150.00 I'll go through
a lot of aggravation.

Their e- service sucked, never answered email and their web page
gives inaccurate information. AFAICT.

The never called me to let me know my car was ready. I have
another car, and walk to work, so I was not terribly
inconvenienced. If I had needed the car, I would have called
them. I don't know how long it took them to fix the car, the
invoice says in 11-2, out 11-3, so it looks as if it was ready
Tuesday.

 

<cancel unnecessary work>

I went to my regular mechanic, and told him what I needed. He
doesn't do major internal engine work, it turns out (it's really
a tire store- tires, brakes, front end) and I guess he can't tie
up a bay for 5 hours for stuff like that. He recommended another
shop, so I drove over as it was on my way to put 150 miles on the
car to cycle the ECM anyways.

The guy at the shop listened to what I wanted, recommended I
change the water pump, and said he would use parts I supplied if
that was what I wanted. BUT no warranty if I provide the parts.
He will order the parts from the dealer if that is what I want
and told me it would cost more, which I knew. He said they would
check the idler and tensioner and replace them if they *needed*
it, OR I could replace them anyhow for the peace of mind.

So I was favorably impressed, he seemed honest and alert and
willing to "work with me". His basic quote was $350.00 for the
labor. He will work up a quote for parts if I'd like.

So: This looks to be about $300-400 cheaper than the dealer. I'm
guessing about $300 for parts, but I'm not sure whether to get
them from the Hyundai dealer or let the mechanic get them from
parts 'r' us- I'm thinking spending a few $$$ on the parts is
worthwhile. If the stuff he gets is "almost as good" as OEM, it
probably won't ever matter, but if it's really "el cheapo" stuff
it'll last long after his 90 day warranty is up but might bite me
in the ass in 2012.

I guess every body is bored with this thread, but I'd still be
open to comments....

 

Not bored, that is why this group exists. To learn and help each other.

IMO, you are making a good move. You know the Hyundai parts are good
quality and it is worth a few $$ more for peace of mind, but certainly not
double. Make a quick phone call to find out the costs. Gates, for
instance, makes most of the belts that are used by every car maker. A Gates
belt from NAPA or Auto Zone is going to be just as good as dealer supplied.
Rebuilt parts like starters and alternators can vary in quality and price.
Spark plugs are good from any of the top brands. If the shop is going to
warrantee the job, I'd have confidence.

 

The question I would ask is what is the warranty on the belt and does it
cover incidental damage to the engine if the belt breaks. I don't know
if this is an interference engine, but many are nowadays.

I believe that hyundaitech said that Hyundai will warrant both the belt
and any engine damage that occurs should a dealer installed belt fail.
That could well be worth the extra $400 cost at the dealer if you plan
to keep the car a long time.

Matt

 

Interesting question! I didn't think to ask the dealership what
the warranty would be on their work. I guess my presumption was
that the dealer would do it right, and that after the four year
interval on the belt was up, the car would probably take it's
chances. *I* will not be putting 100K miles on this car in the
next 4 years unless my life changes radically.

I'm guessing if the dealership did warrant the work for more
than, say, 90 days, that it would only be until the 4 year
interval on the belt was up. Which is only fair.

I've also bee thinking that I have been at cross-purposes with
the dealership. They wanted $950 for the belt, pump, idler and
tensioner. *I* am not overly familiar with what this system
comprises. I *meant* the belt, pump, idler pully, and tensioner
pully, which are all moving parts and, to my mind, subject to
wear and now have 100K miles on them. I see there is a tensioner
assembly, which is about $150.00. I wonder if *that's what the
service manager was telling me was not usually replaced. Although
if the tensioner goes bad, I guess the belt fails, I'm not so
gung-ho on replacing $100+ parts just for insurance. $25.00 parts
that are subject to wear and involve little labor to do at the
time, and much labor and potential expense and engine damage if
they go bad later, seem like a no-brainer to me.

 

This is correct if you're there's more than that period of time left
on the powertrain warranty-- the timing belt is a powertrain
warrantable component and will be covered as long as it's not overdue
for replacement. So if you're the original owner and replace the belt
after 4 years/55k miles, your remaining warranty on the belt is 4
years (the next replacement interval) or 45k miles (the end of the
powertrain warranty), whichever comes first.

Otherwise, it comes with the standard 1 year/12k mile parts warranty
within which Hyundai will stand behind the part and labor associated
with its failure. Quality of the workmanship falls under the dealer's
own warranty.

 

My advice is to have the shop purchase the parts (except spark plugs)
from the dealer. It'll probably cost about the same as if you
purchased them at the dealer yourself. There's nothing special about
the dealer's NGK spark plugs except their price. The same plugs can
be sourced elsewhere at a much lower cost.

I'd recommend replacing the idler and tensioner pulleys only if
necessary. Failures are rare and would normally be accompanied by a
loud noise, warning of the impending failure. Additionally, you're
likely to pay closer to $65 or so for each pulley, not the $25 you're
thinking. The hydraulic tensioner, on the other hand, is more
difficult to notice, and can cause the belt to jump time. I'd replace
this for insurance.

 

Well, it's done. I stopped in and made an appointment last week,
for last Tuesday. Wed the mechanic called with the price, just
shy of $800.00 I specified they get the parts from the Hyundai
dealer a block away.

He said they could not the idler pulley or tensioner, even the
Hyundai dealer didn't have them. They would take 2-3 days to get
in. So, I opted to not change them. The dealer said the same
thing I was told here, they rarely fail. I presume the "tentioner
pulley" is actually the tensioner.

Breakdown of the bill is:
Timing belt: 102.06
Tentioner (sic) pulley 083.11
Waterpump 141.23
Gasket 008.54
Drive Belt 027.50
coolant 2@10 020.00
labor [email protected] 350.00
total w/tax 791.04

Car seems to run fine, I haven't checked it out as it's been in
the single digits here. I will check it out later today when I go
outside.

On the plus side: the guy listened and seemed willing to do what
I wanted. Presumable, he didn't rip me off, because he could have
charged me for the pulleys and I would probably never have known.

On the minus side: I offered to give him a deposit for the parts
the first and second time I was there, which he declined. I
thought that might speed things up in case it was hard to get the
parts for any reason. When he called with the estimate, he said
he didn't have the money for the parts and could I drop off some
money so he could get the parts first thing in the AM. So, I had
to walk home (as usual), then start up my beater car, drive 6
miles across down during rush hour to drop the cash off. I wasn't
really happy- I spent Tues rushing to get the car to the garage,
had to arrange a ride, and planned on rushing right up there
Thursday to pick the car up before they closed. I had other
things planned for Wed. night

Although I had told him I was willing to wait for the car, I
know a garage is busy and he needed to block out the best part of
a day to do the work, I finally had to call at 4 PM Thu. to make
sure it was ready, since I was paying for a ride after work to
pick the car up. He said it would be ready by the time I got
there, it just needed the bill finished in the computer. The guy
who does that is "on a police call" and he (the mechanic) doesn't
do that. (???) So, when I get there at 5PM, the car is still in
the bay with the hood up, the guy who puts the bill in the
computer is still not back. he says it will only be a few more
minutes. So, I send my ride away, and sit in the waiting area for
15 minutes while they finish up.

So, I don't know. I could have gotten it done at the dealer for
$950. The dealer didn't really tell me what was included,
parts-wise. I didn't find them very willing to spend time talking
to me, and when I left the car there for the recall work they
didn't call me (as promised)when it was ready, I just didn't feel
a lot of confidence in the dealer.

All in all, it made me realize that when I planned this out, I
planned on losing 8-12 hours if I did the repair myself, but I
lost about 3 hours just running around dropping the car off and
picking it up. Plus $20 for "taxi" service. So I believe that I
will plan on doing any work possible myself in the future, I can
make about $30 hr. and know exactly what happened during the repair.

Still, I would not be doing a timing belt in my driveway at this
point, it's *cold*. Waiting until spring didn't seem like a wise
move, given how overdue the repair was.